AC Interview | Jared Ledesma
We recently sat down with Jared Ledesma, Senior Curator at the Akron Art Museum, to follow up on ‘From the Margins to the Center: Inclusive Curatorial Practices and Cultural Institutions,’ an Alternate Currents panel discussion hosted in August of 2021. We spoke more about methodological shifts in the curatorial field, institutional barriers to working inclusively, and what adopting more inclusive curatorial practices might mean for arts organizations committed to equity and justice. Listen below or, if you’re on the go, visit Amplify’s Anchor page to listen on your favorite podcasting service.
Transcription
Interviewer: Peter Fankhauser
Interviewee: Jared Ledesma
Date of Interview: November 29th, 2021
List of Acronyms: JL = Jared Ledesma; PF = Peter Fankhauser
[JL] My name is Jared Ledesma. I’m a senior curator at the Akron Art Museum in Akron, Ohio and I manage the exhibition program at the Museum, the collection, and accessions program—basically everything that has to do with our galleries, inside our galleries and the building of the permanent collection and display of the collection.
[PF] Back in August, you joined us for an Alternate Currents panel discussion, along with Natalie Bell, Mary Lawson, and Jared Packard, who moderated, about inclusive curatorial practices. During that discussion, we talked about the idea that inclusive curatorial practices, or working with and in community to organize and create exhibitions, can, in a way, queer institutional systems and structures. I wondered if you could elaborate on that idea and your definition of queerness and what that means in the context of your curatorial practice.
[JL] I don't know if I mentioned this in the panel, but my focus in graduate school was queer art. I focused on Félix González-Torres, and I think that that focus really prepared me for focusing on LGBTQ art and artists as a career. My thesis was on an archive at Bard College that preserves the love letters exchanged between Ross Laycock and Félix and asked why no one has heard of this; should it be used as evidence to support his art and so on. I started with that and thinking about where LGBTQ artists are represented in museums. How can we find them and what are their untold stories? I think that's more of my engagement with queerness in my career.
Queer theory came out of feminist theory and second wave feminism and thinking about inclusiveness and LGBTQ histories and psychology. When I think about curating an exhibition, I typically don’t go to queer theory to support my thesis. I will look to someone like Foucault or José Esteban Muñoz to support a thesis and to see whether it's been said or done or to be sure I’m not crazy. For example, when I was organizing a show on Louis Fratino and his art, I was thinking his work creates a type of utopia, and then I would look at José Esteban Muñoz and his idea of queer utopia to find a support there for my thesis. I think it's interesting in curating this way, especially focusing on LGBTQ artists, I don't want to call it revisionist, but when you organize an LGBTQ art exhibition, it can be seen as ghettoizing the artists in a way. But it's also making making them more well-known and we can't really think that the United States is how the whole world is as far as like this, “we're over queerness,” or that we've achieved a certain type of equality. The world isn't at that point, and we have to remember that we are in our own kind of social climate and there are other social climates, not just nationally, but globally and regionally as well. This is something that's on my mind when I think about organizing a queer exhibition. The theory is there is for support, but the regional or geographical context is important as well. I hope that makes sense.
[PF] That's such a good point. I also often feel like institutions themselves have their own social climates or create their own social capital or cultural ecosystem in a city. You work at a big institution. What does queerness work toward or against in an institutional setting? You also mentioned the importance of looking at specific regions and how queerness is perceived differently according to region. The second part to that question is then, how do you think the stakes change when working in a place like Akron or Des Moines, as opposed to a place like New York or Los Angeles?
[JL] We're at an interesting moment right now with queerness and institutions. I think my response to your question is more of a point about logistics in museums. For example, in our collections database and how we address an artist's sexuality, if I wanted to organize a show based on, or using objects in our collection focusing on queer artists, it would be awesome if I could just type in “queer” or “LGBTQ” and get a whole list of artists. That's not the case right now. Some collection databases in some museums have done that, which is awesome. I think that's an example of queering the institution logistically. Since I started at the Akron Art Museum, we've been adding pronouns in our accession defenses. So, when I propose a new object for the collection, I write up a mini-essay about the object and give all the details about the artist. We've included a space for pronouns because if they're living, it's great to collect that information now, and check with them to be sure, instead of guessing. It's great, but we're also thinking about, this just came up the other day, should it be “LGBTQ+?” Should it be “LGBTQAI+?” Should it be “Queer and Trans Folks?” These are definitely things we're thinking about. Luckily, there's the American Alliance of Museums. They have an LGBTQ alliance, which is awesome, that has prepared a set of guidelines for museum folks like me to help us with those questions.
We're in an interesting moment right now, maybe over the past five years or so, where I think Queer folks less and less are moving to San Francisco, or Los Angeles, or New York. I feel like a lot of Queer and Trans folks, if they're from Topeka, Kansas, they’re moving to Kansas City. People from Ames, Iowa are moving to Des Moines. People from Youngstown, Ohio are moving to Cleveland. I feel like this is happening more and these centers are starting to form in the Midwest for Queer and Trans folks who feel more comfortable living because there's this, I don't want to call it a new era, but there's something happening in the Midwest. It's exciting.
[PF] I feel like I see that too, even in Omaha. You mentioned categorization and assigning identity to artists in the collection as being fluid. There's a lot of openness and possibility there, which are also fundamental tenets of queer theory. How do you think an institution can ensure that openness remains in the future as those definitions or categories continue to change and transform?
[JL] Well, I just finished a curatorial vision for the Akron Art Museum, which is a document that I wrote out with the help of my colleagues. It basically lays out our collecting principles and our exhibition principles--why we collect what we're collecting and why we're showing what we're showing. There's one principle which states that we support artists who have been marginalized, or who come from communities that have been marginalized in some way. We support scholarship around this and making them more visible. I think having that is a way to ensure that this continues. This document is revisited every five years to be sure that it remains relevant for the time. So, if we go to buy something for the collection, we make sure that the purchase of the artwork is supported by one of these principles. In many cases, they intersect. The work could be by a Black Trans artist, or an Iranian woman artist, or many other intersecting identities. I think this been going on at a lot of museums for a little while, but I don't know how many of us have sat down and written it out to try to be more transparent about this process.
[PF] That's super interesting. Back in August, we also talked about queering the process of organizing exhibitions and flattening the hierarchies that separate museums from the communities in which they're situated by incorporating more community-informed decision making at an early stage in the exhibition planning process. Can you talk about, or give an example, of what that looks like in your practice? How do you balance institutional priorities with the needs of communities that you're working with?
[JL] I think Queer Abstraction is the best example that I have. We looked to community organizations well in advance of the show opening. Another example is an exhibition that I’ve starting to work on: Queerness and Afrofuturism. This is an idea I’ve had for a while. There's a Center for Afrofuturist Studies in Iowa City at the University of Iowa. I’m noticing other Afrofuturist shows popping up, so I’m nervous I have to do this now, but I’m not because I want it to be well researched. I am not Black. I am not a scholar on Afrofuturism, so this is definitely something that I will need help with. I want to get the conversation started early with the Center for Afrofuturism, but also talk to some scholars on Afrofuturism who can help with the curatorial process. I think what I’m getting at is that we really need to start these conversations early with community organizations make sure they know that this relationship will continue beyond an exhibition. This is a partnership that will live on past the exhibition's closing date and making good on that promise is important as well.
[PF] When working in this way and working more inclusively to essentially queer some operational aspects of the institution that have been very staid and immobile for many years, how does working in that way have the potential decentralize wealth and power in the cultural sector on a broader scale?
[JL] That reminds me of this amazing essay by Jennifer Doyle on queer Warhol where she opens by mentioning these Warhol screen prints, or lithographs, in a gay bar in Los Angeles. She talks about these prints and how they're vulgar and dirty and how when we see Warhol in a museum, it's the Jackies or it's the Brillo Boxes instead. She says that's the Warhol people want to see in a museum context. Why is it important to also see the work in the context of a gay bar? Can the two co-exist? Can a gay bar be in a museum or vice-versa? I think that's what I’m thinking about when it comes to the museum going into neighborhoods or communities. They really have to think about the characteristics of the community and what that community is actually about.
[PF] I totally agree. We also talked about the process of discovery back in August as analogous to colonization or those two things emerging from the same sort of cultural logic at least. As a counter argument to that, I feel like discovery is an important concept and an important process for a lot of Queer people. If you were to take that idea of discovery and reframe it within your curatorial practice, how would you ground it in a queer ontology?
[JL] I think that's one approach to curating--finding the lost, forgotten female artist who never had a voice during her time. It's the same for Queer artists. I think that's important and part of my job. I see that as part of my job as a curator and an art historian. I think that's part of my job to bring those stories to light. A great example is Agnes Pelton. I don't know if I talked about this in the zoom panel. The Phoenix Art Museum did a huge show recently of her work and it traveled to the Whitney and to Palm Springs as well. The Des Moines Art Center has a phenomenal painting by Agnes Pelton in its collection. It was something I discovered when I first arrived there and it's beautiful. She was a 20th century mid-century artist, mostly abstract paintings. She made her living by doing desert landscapes. They're stunning.
In my research, I found an LA Times review of an exhibition and it said, “Pelton, a lesbian…” and I was like, “Whoa, this is awesome.” I was really excited. So, I did more research and wrote up a proposal for a paper on Agnes Pelton and queerness, or queer sexuality, and I got so much pushback from scholars. I wouldn't say loads of people, but many scholars reached out to me and they were like, “Are you the one doing the paper on Agnes Pelton being queer? She wasn't queer. Why is this important? Why are you doing this?” One person told me, “You know, she would have hated you going into her personal history like this.” I was like. “Okay, all that's very good, but this is important for us now.” I reached out to the LA Times critic and asked where he found his source and he was like, “I don't remember.” Then I talked to other people that were like, “Oh yeah, she was lesbian.” At the conclusion of my paper, I say we're not sure, and that's fine. I think what's most important is that we can't assume by default that a person is heterosexual. It's the same when we're writing about artists who lived in the early 20th century when the language wasn't there. Perhaps she was asexual or queer. She didn't have very many partners that we’re aware of, but this research and this documentation, to me, is really important as an art historian and a curator.
[PF] That’s a good segue into talking about the role that representation continues to play and how its potential to transform institutions. Do you think discussions around representation are becoming obsolete? Is it is it over? Is it all identity politics? Does it still matter? What do you think?
[JL] I think it definitely matters now that we're in this moment of racial reckoning and with the resurgence of the Black Lives Matter movement. Museums are under fire as far as owning up to what they show and why are they showing what they show; owning up to the fact that museums are not neutral. I think the public is starting to question these institutions and their authority and how they are artifacts of colonialism. It's a great time. I think there was a period where women's exhibitions or queer exhibitions, like I mentioned earlier, were seen as ghettoizing, but now, we're in a moment where museums are expected to do shows like this. We want to bring out artworks by LGBTQ artists in our collection and highlight them and focus on diversity, at least, I hope. I don't know if that's too optimistic.
I reread an article by an Artform by Helen Molesworth where she talks about the reinstallation of the Museum of Modern Arts’ permanent collection after they reopened. I think that was in 2019. Next year, the Akron Art Museum is celebrating its centennial and part of that will be reinstalling the permanent collection. So, I wanted to get some um some ideas and also hear what Helen Molesworth, who I highly respect, had to say about MoMA and their reinstallation. She says it's good, it's interesting, but it's not enough. She talks about Picasso’s Guernica or les Demoiselles d’Avignon and asks if a work by a Black woman artist can have that type of iconicity. Can it be an icon in that way? And instead of pairing objects a Black artist and a white artist together to point out these two worked at the same time period, highlight the work by the Black artist as an anchor in the gallery and then support it with other artworks from the collection. I think that's an awesome idea. These are things that some curators have been thinking about for a long time and finally it's starting to catch on.
[PF] Jared, thank you so much. We appreciate you talking to us again.
[JL] Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to talk to you again I'm looking forward to going back to Omaha sometime in the future. I love Omaha. It's a great city with a great bookstore.
[PF] Jackson Street?
[JL] Yes! I spent way too much money there.
*This transcript has been edited for clarity.
Jared Ledesma joined the Akron Art Museum as senior curator in July 2021. Prior to Akron, Ledesma was associate curator at the Des Moines Art Center, where he organized more than a dozen exhibitions. This includes Queer Abstraction, which earned a commendation from the 2019 Sotheby’s Prize jury and the 2020 SECAC Award for Outstanding Exhibition and Catalog of Contemporary Materials. Other exhibitions Ledesma has organized include Iowa Artists 2021: Olivia Valentine, Hedda Sterne: Imagination and Machine, Jeffrey Gibson: I Was Here, The Art Students League of New York, and I, too, am America (2017). Before working at the Des Moines Art Center, Ledesma was curatorial assistant in the department of painting and sculpture at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art (SFMOMA). Ledesma is originally from the San Francisco Bay Area and holds both a BA and MA in art history, with a focus in queer art.